What is the basis for your position on pro-life? Is it a Bible basis, like Jeremiah 1:5, which states, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee..." (Tom actually has this as his basis and actually quotes Jeremiah in his speeches; I have heard him do it several times, actually.)
Or do you approach your pro-life position as a *civil libertarian* like Ron Paul? And why do you think that your civil libertarian position is superior to the Bible and Tom's approach to the matter?
Or perhaps you are not pro-life? Why?
I'd like some candid discussion on this issue, since we have murdered over 40 million babies in this country since Roe vs. Wade.
P.S. - The full verse from Jeremiah 1:5 states, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Keywords: abortion, babies, pro-life, roe v wade, roe vs. wade
Comments
For some stats, you might want to review this page:
Abortion in the United States
I agree with Tom when he says "abortion is murder." I'd like to clarify that a little and say that "abortion for the sake of convenience" is murder." What these poor duped people don't realize is how they are going to be suffering in Hell for the grave error they made - and that means the abortionist doctors, the woman/girl, and possibly the male involved are all going to be in the same boat.
That said, the only time an abortion is forgiven by God - is if the life of the mother is in jeopardy of dying - especially if that mother already has living children who need her love - and it would be too much of a sacrifice for them.
All babies go to Heaven, however, those babies who are aborted for the sake of convenience never receive a mother's love.
Ever since abortion became legal, our society has become what I call "the killing fields. People need to wake up to this atrocity. And they should also heed the warning of Jane Roe. Remember her? The one perpetrator who allowed herself to be the leader of this crime against humanity. And she didn't even get an abortion after all - she put her baby up for adoption! She became a Christian and now denounces it.
This whole debacle is horrific and needs to be stopped! And our Tom as President Tancredo would appoint Conservative judges who would "error" on the side of life.
Who's Who in Roe vs. Wade?
Lead plaintiff
Norma McCorvey was pregnant with her third child when she was recruited to be "Jane Roe," the lead plaintiff in the Roe vs. Wade class-action lawsuit. Ironically, she never had an abortion, but instead delivered a girl, whom she gave up for adoption. The identity of Jane Roe remained a secret to the public until the 1980s, when McCorvey disclosed her real name. She wrote a book about her life titled "I Am Roe: My Life, Roe v. Wade, and Freedom of Choice." In 1995, McCorvey changed her allegiance in the abortion-rights cause and became a staunch anti-abortion activist.
Joan, I would say, that since we do not know of a particular situation that you're talking about regarding abortion being not murder... then I'd say ANY abortion IS murder.
In my estimation the hypothetical situation that you're talking about (where both lives of the mother and of the baby are equally endagered) is not an "abortion" at all. It is like in case of a car crash rescuers were to chose wich side to come from and which door to open and either the driver or the passanger survives. Do they KILL by saving one or another? I'd say it falls under "accident". But, again, unless we know of a particular situation...
I have two children. I am totally heat-broken when I even think that somewhere in this country a woman is thinking about commiting an abortion as I type this post. I do not understand how any woman who conceived can kill. Especially I do not understand how women who have living children can kill, neither I understand how a woman in her 2nd and 3rd trimester can go into a doctors office and kill her child. ... being honestl I do not understand HOW ANYONE CAN KILL IN ANY CASE! But especially a mother to kill her God-given child.
I know that Jewish women by the Law of Moses were not to even cause a miscarriage. They were punished heavily by the community if were witnessed acting uncareful while pregnant and causing a miscarriage, let alone, consciously cause a misscarige.
Saying that, I wonder how many women in this country as well as around the whole world were consciously causing miscarriages with the help of regular contraception... and how many babies were killed and went undocumented.
...have you thought about that hormonal contraception such as pills act... in fact as abortions? I know it may sound quite shocking, but it is true and even 3 of my doctors had confirmed this with me.)
Think about it. The pills are supposed to stop ovulation, and they do... but you never can be sure 100%. So what does happen when a woman ovulates despite the pills? If she does then there's a good possibility for her getting pregnant and the only way she doesn't is if the fertilized egg is not able to attach to the uterus walls.
Contraception pills make tissues on the sides of the uterus very weak that's how the egg can't implant itself. Unless implantation happens pregnancy can't begin. The pills work both ways and accomplish their purpose one way or another...
...let's think when the life begins? I stronly, as many, believe that life begins when egg becomes fertilized. "Life at conception" is considered when the fertilized egg implants. I belive it is prior to that. I believe that any "preventive" actions that took place both before implantation and after fertillization are also to be considered abortion.
I personally classify contraception methods into 3 main categories: 1) preventive: "simplistic" uncomfortable ones 2) abortive: all hormonal patches & pills and IUD's 3) irreversibly ungodly: surgeries on males and females
If I could I would DEMAND for a ban on IUDs and hormonal contraception as well as the actuall surgical pregnancy termination procedures - the so-called "abortions".
Ah, one more "proof" of my "truth on hormonal contraception" is the so-called "EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION" - which is up to 5 regular hormonal pills taken at once within 72 hours of the "undesired" or "careless" intercourse. This method is for cases where fertillizatrion and implantation may have already happened. Isn't this enough to prove my words?
...keeping in mind all that, how many babies had been killed due to IUD's, emergency contraception and regular usage of hormonal pills and patches???? ALL THOSE cases are left undocumanted... That's my point!
God knows, how heart-broken I am over this!!!
Tanc4Babies
_________________
Some More Proofs:
- Let me say, that their commentary on WHY exactly periods are not painful is not quite correct. Both benefits such as "less cramps" and "less bleeding" are the very results of weakening the tissues that hold the fertilized egg once it implants (tissues that develop into placenta in pregnancy). When a woman is not pregnant these tissues detach during periods. The process of detaching may be painful. To reduce pain GYNs advice hormonla pills. In a non-pregnant woman pills reduce pain, in a pregnant woman they "detach" the baby should it accidentally get implanted. My point is proven.
Excellent post, Tanc4Babies. Hopefully all of the men and women that read this thread will be challenged by what you said. I believe your proofs and arguments are accurate. I have a medical background and I happen to know that what you said is true from that standpoint.
In early October of this year, I read an excellent article on WorldNetDaily.com, with the following title and sub-title:
Abortions linked to breast cancer again: "Women aren't being given this information"
The link to the article can be found here:
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57963
I recommend that everyone read it. I was aware of the link between abortion and breast cancer, but I was so pleased to see someone actually give a detailed explanation of this. My understanding was and is that about 11 out of every 12 women that have an abortion get breast cancer.
I would like some comments on this WorldNetDaily article as well, since it's proven, scientifically, that there is a direct link to breast cancer from women who have abortions.
My personal belief is that this is God's judgement upon the woman for killing her baby. Unfortunately, too many doctors don't even tell women about these risks and links.
For a long time, I wondered why these abortion advocates pushed late 3rd trimester abortions. When I came to realize that the undifferentiated cells in the breasts become differentiated in the 3rd trimester, then it all made sense. It's a way to still kill the babies, yet reduce the risks of these women getting breast cancer.
The WorldNetDaily article says the following:
These doctors are willing to mutilate the body of the baby and kill it, to save the body of the woman and preserve her from getting breast cancer, because of course, breast cancer kills. Who will show compassion on the millions of babies that are aborted?
Great posts. What is sad is the "disconnect" woman have when they chose to kill an unwanted baby. They must be walking around in a zombie-like state to not even realize the crime of their actions. Same with the abortionist doctors. But like with all things with God, they will have to pay the penalty for their sin and that won't fun.
As far as birth control goes, I'm all for it. What I've learned in my religious studies is that it takes about two weeks after conception for the "soul" (I knew you even before you were in the belly says God) to be implanted in the baby.
Well, we don't know what happens in other countries besides the US as to how many woman are at risk in child birth. Obviously, with our medical technology here, the numbers are probably extremely low.
Joan, you said:
"As far as birth control goes, I'm all for it. What I’ve learned in my religious studies is that it takes about two weeks after conception for the ‘soul’ (I knew you even before you were in the belly says God) to be implanted in the baby."
Where in the Bible does it say that there is a delay in the soul?
What is interesting is that Genesis 2:7 says:
In truth then - according to Genesis 2:7 - we are a soul, we don't have a soul. God created us with a body and a spirit. The spirit stays alive until we come to a knowledge of sin. Paul records this for us in Romans 7:9:
This is why "ye must be born again," according to John 3:5-12:
James, prior to man becoming a living soul - his "soul" lives in the Heavens with God. Each soul is composed of a dual nature and is connected to each other - like a battery - with a positive and negative charge - there's a boy and a girl soul - true soulmates. Before either soul is implanted in the womb, it hovers the earth and then disconnects from each other. When conditions are "right" for one or the other soul to implant itself in the womb, that's when real life begins. And that is what each of us has within us - a soul, a spirit body and a physical body. Upon our death, our spirit body which has taken on our human form and which also contains our soul, passes into the next world where continuous living resumes in either the Heavens or the Hells.
As Jesus says: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
Joan, as proof against re-incarnation, I would cite Hebrews 9:27, 28:
Glad to know others here are Pro-Life as well.
I am Loud & Proud pro-life. My personal religous beliefs as well as general moral and ethical outlook allow me to find complete comfort and peace espousing this.
When discussing or being confronted with the issue it is the simple yet fundamental point that Life cannot begin without conception taking place therefore life begins at conception which I typically chose to start or respond with.
I look forward to more people becoming Pro-Life.
Joan, I am glad you don't believe in re-incarnation! But, I do have to say that your earlier statements are very confusing and not founded in the Bible.
(YOU SAID: James, prior to man becoming a living soul - his "soul" lives in the Heavens with God. Each soul is composed of a dual nature and is connected to each other - like a battery - with a positive and negative charge - there's a boy and a girl soul - true soulmates. Before either soul is implanted in the womb, it hovers the earth and then disconnects from each other. When conditions are "right" for one or the other soul to implant itself in the womb, that's when real life begins. And that is what each of us has within us - a soul, a spirit body and a physical body.)
It sounds awefully close to a view of re-incarnation, since according to the Bible we don't exist before conception (John 9). Certainly, God - Who is omnicient and Who has foreknowledge and Who is not bound by time - knew us before we were in the womb. However, this does not mean that we existed before conception.
Be that as it may, I am curious what other TANCREDO Fan Campaign members think about the topic of abortion and if you defend your (Pro-Life?) position from a standpoint of faith or civil liberties? It's just about as much of a difference as you see between Tom Tancredo and Ron Paul!
Creampuff, an unwanted responsibility, as a reason for killing the baby - is one thing. It is, as I understand it, when people wanted something else, but had gotten the baby. But the other thing is when a couple wants the baby, but the baby doesn't turn out healthy (let's say has a Down Syndrome) then they chose to listen to the doctor (in many cases doctors are the ones who suggest it) and chose to kill the baby and "try again" - when I hear things like THIS, my heart skip a beat.
My husband and I had even refused from Down Syndrome testing, since we wouldn't "take an action on that one", as our doctor said, so why to even bother with this test?
All these genetic testings like chorionic villi sampling around 8-10 weeks (placenta tissue sampling), amniosentesis - 16-20 weeks (when they take amniotic fluid), umbilical blood testing, mother's blood genetic testing - all these really elaborate tests for detecting baby's chromosomal and other genetic abnormalities at the most early stage... you think it is for the sake of helping the baby to survive? Amm, NOT REALLY! It is for the sake of killing the baby "before Mom really gets emotionally attached to this baby who has very little chance for surviving"...
These doctors think that they are gods and they are to decide when and whom to kill and for what reason.
...oh, I have heard a story from a Christian woman. She had a multiple pregnancy (she's got 4 babies at the same time) and her doctor said they then need to get rid of 2 to allow the other 2 to develop. Well, she went back and forth with the doctor, eventually, they all decided to kill only one baby and leave the 3. She was all tomented by it. Later in pregnancy she had lost his triplets. She was already at that age that she couldn't have any more children. Also after this last pregnancy she had suffered a lot with different health issues. And generally she was very hurt emotionally. No Wonder! ...and I am thinking should they have left that baby, wouldn't she deliver all 4? I do not know, but I certainly believe that they had to allow the Lord to deal with it, rather chosing to kill.
Some political activist said once: "...if one little tear-drop of one child is the price for the happiness and well being of the whole world... then, I'll tell you, the sacrifice is not worth it!"
Well, what about one life of one child? ...and how many of them were sacrificed for nothing?
Creampuff, we have to only wonder how many more precious people we're missing today due to abortion.
I know how illegal immigration is a #1 issue...but honestly abortion and Tom's stand on abortion is something that makes PERSONALLY me support him. In other words if one asks me what's more of an issue with me - abortion or immigration... I can't say. I'd have to think.
Well, I wish all would cherish God-given and God-preserved life like those of us who are here... I mean, people take everything for granted and like if it was rightfully deserved instead of taking everything as a blessing - by grace through faith, not of works...
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9